Business, babies and burnout in France
When we are in the day to day it feels hard to raise our heads and look at the big picture. We're IN the school drop offs, the rushing to get on a call, the pressure of the project. One of the things that I found so valuable about this conversation with Fiona Moguenot is her perspective of looking back on working and parenting from the vantage point of adult children and grandchildren.
Fiona is a UK national who has lived and worked in France for decades. She has raised four children, built businesses and expertise in marketing, tax, and international HR, spoken on industry panels and mucked out stables. I am so grateful to her for sharing her behind the scenes.
We discuss:
two anchors that make this amount of work possible
different strategies for carving out quality time with children
blended families and managing money
a regret and reminder about what NOT to drop in a busy life
how work can be the thing we use to avoid other stuff!
Prefer to listen to the full podcast? Click here A conversation about business, babies and burnout in France
I love this conversation with Fiona because she looks at working and parenting from the aspect of someone who's been there and done that. Fiona is in her late 60s. She is a professional woman. She's still working. She has raised multiple children of her own and in a blended family. She's had demanding jobs.
She's now at the point where she is getting ready to welcome grandchildren into the world. And she has given us so much information and wisdom and hindsight over number one, what's possible in terms of what she's seen change over generations. And also what support that she called in, in her time, what she maybe would have done differently, what she's proud of looking back.
And I think it's such a helpful perspective for us to have. Women looking back on their time when they were young children, there was busyness, there was work deadline, there was, you know, negotiations with partner around time, money and finances and thinking [00:01:00] about what felt really important and what didn't and what doesn't matter in hindsight.
So I think there's so many. individual tools that you can pull out of this conversation, but also just a really great perspective on being in this season from someone who's in a different season. So thank you so much Fiona for your time, for your honesty, for your wisdom, and let's dive into this conversation.
Hi lovelies,
this is Maude. Women's burnout and leadership coach. You're listening to the work family, me podcast, a series of conversations with women from different cultures and industries around the world about the behind the scenes of earning money. Parenting, being in relationship and adulting all at the same time.
Here, we will discuss the challenges, ideas, and support structures that show up in co earning dual parenting situations and talk through some [00:02:00] helpful strategies and mindsets. Why? So that you as a busy working woman can learn from others, implement what could make your life a little bit easier, and share these with your family, friends, and colleagues.
We are at the forefront of working, parenting, and relating in a totally different way to previous generations. And there can be so much value in validating this and learning with each other. I'm so happy that you're here. Let's dive into the conversation for today.
Fiona, I'm excited to be here talking to you because I feel like you've done this. You did this before we did this, right? We're badass. Korea, children, growing a family, having a cross cultural marriage and relationship, and everything that came with that way before we did. Um, we were in this [00:03:00] generation where it was kind of quote unquote normal, right?
So, would you mind briefly introducing yourself, where you are, what kind of work you do, and what your family situation is? With pleasure. So, um, I'm British. Um, to give you some background because I'm a real ex pat baby, I think. I was born in Hong Kong in 1956. Um, and my mother was born in India. Mmm. And I come from a cross cultural family because my mother's family, uh, well my mother was half Spanish, um, and the rest was Portuguese and Irish, and my father was Scottish.
So there you go. Um, for the, lots of ingredients, little, little start ingredients. And, um, I, I arrived in England, I was about a year and a half, and I think that probably for all my school years, [00:04:00] I definitely felt very much that I wasn't, you know, Part of this, and I couldn't quite understand why, uh, one of the reasons may have been, and this sounds strange to say this today, but, um, at the time my family is Catholic, and at the time, yes, in England we were slightly frowned down, um, we were a minority, um, and as always minorities you get very practicing, and I went to boarding school, Catholic boarding school, with nuns, and I still felt very much out of it.
And then I began to realize that actually my mother's family was Spanish, and they'd left, um, for political reasons, Spain. And that when they arrived in the UK, they stopped speaking Spanish, and they had nothing to do with Spain, and they became more English than in the English. Um, my mother even spoke in French to her grandparents.
And that probably there was some cultural stuff back there, which meant that I didn't really fit in. And I moved here to [00:05:00] France when I was age 17 initially just for six months because my mother thought it was very important that I spoke French and I should be bilingual. And I landed up pretty much not really leaving here.
I got married very, very young. My first Marriage, I was 18, uh, went and lived in the States for a little bit and then came back to France and basically have never left since then. Um, my second husband is French. I have four children and two step grandchildren and I have five step grandchildren and just about have my first grandson, which is really exciting.
And yes, I've always worked. Um, and I still work. I'm 67. Um, I love working. Um, I think it's just probably part of the way that I was brought up, and I do think that people who like working are probably people who, when they were children and young, were a little bit hungry. [00:06:00] Um, that I certainly wasn't born with a silver spoon in my mouth and that if you want something you've got to go and get it and you've got to work hard for it.
And you've always got to work hard. That is an absolute ethic in the family. Whatever you do, you work hard for it. And yes, it's rewarding. I love working. And then as you say, you've got to have the balance between family and children and partners. You've got to remember that they exist. But I've known her for about 40 years with my husband.
It's a whole different kind of fish. It's a very different kind of fish. Exactly. And not just in the present space in which I work now, which is global mobility and immigration, but even before that doing other things. So we're very bonded. Yeah. On many levels. for better or for worse. Um, when you think [00:07:00] about the time where you were raising four children and both working professionally, earning money, how did a regular week look at that time?
So, um, a regular week, I'm, I'm an absolute fanatic about planning. Um, I have lists everywhere. Everything is planned. Really, really well in advance, um, just because it's part of me. That's the way I work and that's the way I, I lead my life. Um, and I like things to be very planned because there are surprises the whole time and I love surprises, but you can't deal with stress and surprises and for children and a job, um, if you don't plan.
So everything was highly planned in advance. Um, I was very lucky. In the fact that with my husband, we chose to have somebody help us in the house with the children. I mean, I'm not talking about having somebody living in and full time and nannies, but we did have help. I wasn't doing [00:08:00] managing a house and children and a job all alone.
Um, because I thought it was very important for the children to have a very regular life. Um, they go back from school, uh, they have a meal, they have a snack, they do the homework, they go to bed. regardless of whether I'm going to arrive home at seven in the evening or at nine in the evening. So, it was very planned, very regular for everybody.
I like to have breakfast alone because I don't like talking in the morning. So, it meant getting up very early in the morning before everybody and I love it. I love being up in the morning. A house, everybody's asleep and you have this little, it's the only time in the day when you have a space to yourself Uh, and I've sort of kept that, uh, because I think it's, it's important to have a little bit of time when, yeah, you're just yourself, alone.
You're not doing anything. You can have your cup of [00:09:00] tea, you can meditate. But yeah. You know, you're just alone. Nobody's coming to. And then, yes, then it's go, go, go, because, um, yes, children have to get to school. Um, so when they got to get to school at eight, it means that everybody's got to be up and ready.
And at one moment we had, um, four to five drop offs in the morning in between me and children in different schools. Then we sort of reduced that and we had two different schools and me. Um, my husband was an absolute saint. He used to put everybody into the car at 7. 30 in the morning and he used to drive around Paris dropping this all off, which was really nice.
So two things I want to kind of pause with and emphasize for, um, overwhelmed parents out there listening. Number one is it sounds like you bought in support where you're saying. I'm not there in the afternoons. It's great to have somebody there. We want to prioritize that. That's important to us as a family.
Can we hire in people, right? If we don't [00:10:00] have grandparents or extended family to help with that. And the second one is finding these pockets of time where no one needs us, right? They can be so replenishing. I want to pause here with this little note around pockets of time. When no one needs us because I know that this is almost a recurring fantasy or an embodied kind of yearning that so many of my one on one clients have when they are being torn in different directions with Um, family conflicts or demands or responsibilities, even when they're joyful ones and when they're being torn in multiple directions where they're managing work or they're delegating or they've got clients on their back or they're needing to plan projects and then they're going into the world and other people are calling them for information or planning or admin or PTA meetings and it feels like.
Everything is quite noisy. Where can we create these pockets of time that are quiet and that [00:11:00] allow for us just to be in ourselves, be in our body, uh, digest what's going on, have a moment to think. And so Fiona's talking about getting up before everybody else and having that moment of quiet time for herself.
And I know that a lot of us wait for that time to kind of appear right when I get everything else done then I'll sit down or then I'll go for a walk or then I'll take a bath and have a moment to clear our head and often what I see is that we need to be proactive about creating that and whether that is.
A walk around the block with the dog, or whether that is I'm lying down on the couch and just closing my eyes, whether that is I'm telling my team not to contact me after six o'clock unless it's super urgent, and I'm going to be shutting off, whether that is my, you know, hour that I've got. Once a week that I've carved out that I dedicate to reading, whatever it is, where are you finding [00:12:00] time for your beingness, right?
We're often designating time for doing things, but there's something here about allowing some space to exist without demands, without answering, without making decisions. That can often feel so nourishing for us and can help us charge our sense of. Um, calmness, our capacity, our patience, our tolerance, which then helps us exist in the busy times.
Right? So how do we keep that well of peace and calm and quiet stocked in amongst the being pulled into various directions? So invitation to you. To look at your micro moments, are they five minutes, are they two minutes, are they 20 minutes that you could protect, you could carve out, and you could actually really acknowledge as there's nothing else to do now, and then resist the urge [00:13:00] to get out your phone and scroll or just check your emails quickly or just ping a WhatsApp message or do whatever you're used to doing of just taking a moment to breathe, breathe, breathe.
to be, to be silent, to digest. Challenge for you. That is super important and it doesn't happen at the end of the day I find with the family. Um, tell you something which is really funny, my children, um, who obviously when they've got to share, Time, um, lovely family when there's only one child, oh, that child has everything.
When there are four and parents are working, it, it's quite difficult to find time. So my children used to do something. They used to think, okay, the one time when we can actually have mummy To us, and she's not going to walk away or say, we'll see about this later, is when she's in the bath. Captive audience.
Captive audience, you're in the bath, you can't get out of the bath, they [00:14:00] come in and they, right. I've got her here. She's stuck here. I've got her for 10 minutes.
I think one of the things that you were saying in the email back and forth is the biggest challenge at that time was quality time with the family. How, how did you find that? What, what did you do? Is that something that you feel like you didn't have? Where did you create it? Tell us about that. So. When we had the four of them all together in Paris, except at weekends, I don't think we had very much quality time, or not enough quality time, um, we didn't make enough quality time, um, I think it's interesting that you learn afterwards about what other people do, um, and maybe it's something I don't think it's something that actually happened when I was raising children, but I now see people who are doing really nice things like once a week they go and take one of their children out to lunch and they do it on a [00:15:00] rotation basis so that they have a lunch with one child.
So it could be once a month, whatever. Um, or they choose to do something once a quarter at a weekend with one of the children so that they have a special time. I think that what my children now say to me is that You didn't make enough time individually for each of us, that it was very much, I took them like, you know, like a wolf pack, um, mother wolf with her cubs, and I used to take the four of them and think, oh, this is great, we're all going to go doing this or doing that.
Whereas, actually, I think now children need something which is very individual, which now I do for them, and that, you know, between 30 and 40, um, and we take them away individually for a weekend, but it's actually when they're children that that is, I'm probably, that I mean, not probably, is certainly more important, and that's something which we didn't do at all, or I didn't do anyway.
[00:16:00] Um, yes, I mean, you always try to spend a little bit of time in the evening reading stories or playing a game, but it doesn't happen every evening, far from it. I would say. And yeah, weekends, um, working parents with a busy family. Um, that means that there's the shopping, the cooking, the activities. Um, and the younger two, we had major, major activities because they were riding, um, and high level competitions.
We had horses at home to deal with. So we shared, it bonded a lot. Um, but it's not individual time where you can just sit down and say. So, are you bored? You know, we didn't really have that sort of moment, no. Yeah. Yeah. And it sounds like, it sounds like looking back, you're thinking that would have been nice, but I didn't even know that there were other ways of doing it.
I was kind of in the surviving, in the day to day of it, um, and that's really [00:17:00] what these conversations are also for, is to have a pause and think about, oh, what are the people doing? What might I be able to introduce? So that's a great topic. Have a, Individual children time or almost rituals where you're tapping into that so that you can, you can note that that time is coming again, both as a parent and a child.
Yeah, I think, I think it's important and I think that, um, it doesn't have to be anything fancy, but to say yes. You know, if it's a ritual that once a month you go on a lovely walk with a child, um, or you take time to do something that that child would like to do with you. It's also important to ask children what they would like to do.
I have a friend and she does something which is, I think, nice, um, as of the age of 10 every two years. She only has two children and she can financially. She takes them on a trip. Uh, and the child chooses the destination, but the child has to organize the trip. [00:18:00] No, no, no. I love all that that's teaching.
Yeah, so I think that's, and so, yes, for once it's, it's the mother, I mean, obviously the mother is going to pay for it, but she's the one who is following what the child would like to share with the mother. And I think that's very interesting because we, we slightly as parents have this obsession that we should be Giving, et cetera.
But every now and again, you can actually have a general reverse mode, which is quite interesting. Mm mm And means you get to know each other as kind of different beings. Yeah. Different sovereign beings. Different independent. Exactly. Thinking humans. Yeah. So, exactly. Um, when you think about, um, the nitty gritty of.
dishes, laundry, cooking, food, finances. How did you and your partner negotiate that in these years that were so goody? So, um, cooking up until when the children left the house. Oh, it's always my area. Um, [00:19:00] it's very funny how, you know, once they left and they grew up, he suddenly took over. Started getting into the kitchen, which he could have done beforehand, but he certainly didn't at that time.
So, um, yeah, most cooking, um, I'm pretty manic about shopping. And, um, he would have a tendency of saying, oh, I'm going to go and do the shopping and then exploding the family budget because he was buying strawberries in the middle of the winter or something like that. Um, or just things which took by his fancy, whereas, yes, I'm very practical.
I know what we're going to be eating seven days of the week, um, with the family was there and you go shopping list and out. So that was definitely something that I managed. He managed a lot of, um, what I would say, taking children all over the place to activities, to friends houses, uh, picking them up. Um, anything like that.
He managed anything which was medical because he's very interested in that and [00:20:00] he worked in the medical area. Um, so I didn't manage anything like that, like emergency hospital visits. That was his job, which suited me fine. Um, finances, um, we, We have a, we have a very separate opinion on finances. So, he pays some things, well this is in the past, he pays some things and I paid other things.
Now this is probably also because we're, um, a family with children from different, different other partners. So, there's a lot of complicated finances that can get into that. So, we were very clear about it. You're going to be paying for this, this, this. I'm going to be paying for that. Um, and that, you know, we've never really asked any questions about that.
Um, I mean, I might say until two years ago, we never even had a joint bank account, which we [00:21:00] do now. I mean, I think a lot of that is based on trust. We trusted each other. Um, that certainly there were. When there were financial difficulties, I mean, like everybody, we've been through those. I mean, seriously been through those, like taking your children on vacation and saying, okay, kids, we are going on vacation.
We're taking you to Corsica. But just so that we're clear, no, we don't have a budget to buy everybody ice cream. So when you've been through that, you can trust your partner, but you have to be very clear. Um, I was told So it sounds like also not shying away from conversations around money. So having conversations about who's spending what where.
And number two, also permission for that to be separate. It sounds like your money went into your bank account and then there were things that you agreed to pay together, which can be different for a lot of people feel like, Oh, it's a sign of. You know, um, it's a sign of trust to have the money all going into [00:22:00] one account or some people grow up with it all being separate.
So just knowing that there's different ways that that can happen. And it's very, uh, I think that for most of us, it also depends on your own upbringing and what your own parents did.
I'm not very good about trusting around money, um, for various family reasons. Um, and certainly now I do totally trust my husband, but it took quite some time to get there. Um, quite some time to, but finance you have to be very, very clear about. I mean, it's like, it's more than running a business. You're running.
lives together and your family lives and your children's lives. So if you're not very clear about the finances, it's going to get sticky. It's going to get difficult. Yeah. I had one of those thing right now, don't clean up your finances. Well, you know, it's even things like you can't have. You [00:23:00] know, you've got to be very clear and you've got to have the freedom that, um, if one of you is overspending, the other person is able to say, I don't think that's necessary.
And on the other hand, you do want the freedom that if you want to go and treat yourself to a spa day and you can, well then you should be able to, without somebody saying to you, do you think you should really treat yourself to a spa day? Finances and how we do money. Can be a very charged topic amongst couples and families.
So it's one that I have tried to touch on and ask into in every single one of these conversations that I've had. With working women around the world, how do they do money so that we have different examples to draw on? Does it all go into the same pot? Are they separate accounts? What's shared? How are people investing?
And I feel like opening up conversations around how we do money as women are so needed because [00:24:00] it's not something that we often grew up talking about, thinking about. In my schooling system, at least, there's very little. Financial literacy or education around different kinds of tax or different kinds of earnings or different kinds of salary or different kinds of investment, particularly for women and girls.
And so having a look at money and seeing what comes up for us as thoughts, emotions can be so useful. And then we put that together with somebody else, a different individual with their own. Money story and money history and money background and money education. And we've often got quite a, a charged atmosphere that can sometimes feel a little bit tense and be overlaid with feelings of trust or vulnerability or control or worry or anxiety.
So I know that this is such a big topic for so many people, so I'm actually have recorded a solo episode so that it takes some of the overwhelm out and it gives you some practical steps to [00:25:00] looking at your finances, getting a little bit more comfortable, maybe having some financial discussions in your family, in your partnership, and start working with those money worries and kind of financial wellbeing pieces, which are such a key piece to feeling confident, feeling at ease in the socio cultural paradigm, right?
I mean, money's kind of a made up thing. So we're all playing a game here. Nevertheless, we are playing in this game. And so money is a real thing in this current paradigm that we're operating in. So go ahead and check that out. If that's something that feels like it would be helpful for you in your life.
Yes. That balance between independence and, and trust and then co creating something that feels fair for everybody. And I mean, we're quite lucky. We don't, neither of us has a passion. Because if you have a partner who has a passion, that can be quite difficult. Um, you know, [00:26:00] we're talking expensive hobbies.
Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, expensive hobbies or collections or, you know, traveling to see things or, you know, I mean, somebody who loves sailing that, I mean, anything, it could be from golf to whatever you want. It can get very, very expensive. So we don't really have a passion. We shared a passion with our children about horses and riding, which, yes, costs an arm and a leg.
We don't regret it, but we both of us agreed on that. When you think about what's quote unquote normal, or what was normal at the time, Did your friends have dual earning, co partnering, co parenting relationships? Was that seen as it's normal for both parents to work, both parents to earn money? How was that at the time?
So, with my first husband, so this is really going back a long time [00:27:00] ago, that was the time when there were I would say perhaps my friends, there were less people once you had children that you continued to work, um, and I stopped work when I had my first two children, um, and then immediately after three years, I got so bored.
I said, well, what on earth am I doing? I must, I must work. It doesn't matter. And then when I became divorced, yes, I had to, I had to work financially. There was no choice. Um, and after that, I think I think that probably most of our friends, they all worked. Yes, everybody worked. Um, some people were lucky that they were able to have jobs, um, that weren't full time.
Uh, which, yes, as a mother with young children, I think it's fantastic when you can, I mean, I think it's, if you want to, I think it's fantastic if you can adapt. Um, and certainly when I ran my own company, that was an option which was always given. And as a matter of fact, I practically insisted upon it when [00:28:00] people used to come with children.
I say, okay, I think you should work four days a week. I don't think you should work five days a week. it's going to be too much. And people used to tell me, and I said, if you can financially, you're going to see that you're going to have a much more balanced life having a break midweek or working less hours, et cetera, because it's, yes, it's time consuming trying to do a job well.
So when you think about, okay, most of both your male and female friends were working and parenting at the same time. Who was stepping up at the domestic front? Did that mostly fall to women or was that also shared equity? Did you see that? No, no. No, I'm still from a generation, yeah, I'm still from a generation when it was mainly parenting.
Running the house was still very much, um, for the, the women. Yeah. Definitely. No, not, no longer, because I can see them all now. It's, it's very different. And it's very funny because [00:29:00] most of them with their grandchildren. It's the grandfathers who do a heck of a lot with their grandchildren. Um, so, yes, it's, I think that we've learned from the next generation that, yes, it's fine to be a man and to pick up a baby and give a bottle, which actually my husband always did.
Um, he used to even do middle of the night feeds. Uh, it was quite unusual. And certainly, you know, when you go on holiday with other, at the time when we went on holiday with friends and with other children, you could see very much that the The role of cooking, feeding, cleaning, washing, was still very much on the women and not on the men who used to go off and play golf.
Do you see that being different in your children's generation? Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Yeah, very, very different. Very different. I see it's very different. What's, um, what could be quite interesting is, [00:30:00] is that because my, my son's, um, 42, and going to be a father for the first time, and with his partner, I think that, and they're both have jobs and work hard and everything like that.
She's lucky because she works from home, but they have, are putting into place something which I think is really good if you can. One night off a week from being a parent, one weekend off a month for being a parent, and one week off a year from being a parent. And I think that's, if you can, if you can do it, that's really great because then a couple.
Can rebo, there are no children there. You can have a fun night or, you know, whatever. Mm mm So you're saying off from being a parent, but you're together or, or from being a parent and a partner? No, off from being a parent, but together, because I think that you need [00:31:00] time together. Now, the, the question about off being a parent and often from being a partner, that is something which is pretty much unknown in my generation because.
Yeah, once you had a partner, you did everything together. Um, and I think it's very interesting. Um, I've only explored it as a hobby, you know, doing, I mean, hobby as like, I go do painting or pottery or whatever. Uh, but I've never done it by saying, Oh, by the way, I'm off to Italy for a week. Bye bye. Um, I, I don't think I, well, I, I know I couldn't do it.
I, I just couldn't do it. Uh, I'd be worried, he'd be worried, whatever. But I do have friends who never did it, but since the age of about 60, yeah, they've started doing it. Yeah, so interesting to see how do we negotiate time when we know, So, [00:32:00] you know, there's shared responsibility and there's also individual energy levels and individual partnership and connection that we want to nurture.
Where do we create that? And it sounds like discussing that before your son even has a child of how are we going to create that for ourselves? Where are we going to have time to reconnect? It's such a clever thing to do. Well, I think it's, it's important to, to discuss it and to find something that's going to work for both sides, um, when you can.
Um, if you don't do anything, um, it could be dangerous. You know, it could be a mother being taken over by a baby and, you know, The partner feels very left out as such. Yeah, there can be so many patterns of resentment or exhaustion, left outness or guilt that can, that can happen when a new factor is introduced, almost regardless of what it is.
Yeah, absolutely. But it also depends on what age you have your family. [00:33:00] Mmm. Very, very different. You know, having a family when you're 20 and having a family when you're over 35, it's completely different. It's completely different from your career. Um, yeah. Yeah. When you think back to, um, your parents and what you were raised with, did your mother work?
Yes. So she didn't work when she, she only worked when my father, when they were separated. She didn't work before. Well, she did. She worked beforehand until she met my father. So she worked until the age of 32. Um, she's a war generation. Um, so yes, they were raised in the war, uh, she, she worked during the war, she was in the army, um, and then she had part time jobs after the war, uh, she moved to Hong Kong, uh, she worked, um, then once she was married, stop, no more work, I'm, I'm now household person, um, I run the [00:34:00] house, I have my children, etc.
And then, of course, when you get into a divorce, Most people have financial difficulties, so she had to go back to work and she really inspired my, my sister and myself because she really worked at anything, absolutely anything, any job that she could have, she took it. It's such an interesting theme that I'm noticing through having these conversations is a lot of the women that I'm working with that have, Manage both a career and children and a partnership in their lives.
Also have that role modeling. Also have parents where both partners worked, where their mothers were working and we can see in research and survey that it's ready got particularly for daughters to see their mothers working. It's ready. Motivating for them that they're actually moving into higher positions or feeling more joy at work when that is the role modeling at home.
So we often feel so much like guilt, you know, for maybe having that part of our lives, but it seems to be [00:35:00] a good thing. I think it's a good thing. Um, I'm not going to criticize people who don't, because there are, there are women who are very, very satisfied to be at home. And, um, I did know a couple and he was very, very, very high up businessman, sort of president or vice president of something.
multinational company. She had had a career and when they adopted their two children, the decision was made that she would stop working. So she stopped working and at the same time, she organized absolutely everything in their life. He didn't do anything other than work. Um, and so her job was running a very busy household, entertaining the children, his travel.
Um, he didn't even do a suitcase when he traveled. Um, absolutely everything, everything, everything, taxes, bank accounts, the lot. That was her job. [00:36:00] And, and she took it as a job. She said, this is my job now, um, because he's out making money, but I have to ensure that everything runs really, really well. Um, so I don't criticize anybody who is at home.
It's a full time job at home. And I love seeing some people, you know, they've got beautiful homes and it's all wonderfully organized. And you think, well, it doesn't happen like that. When you're a working mom, no, you, you have to cut. The bread, or the magical, the magical art. You have to cut. You, you can't, you know, you just can't.
And also, like, I'd love to see some examples of, like, men running the house like that and packing the suitcase and planning the travel. I'd love to hear your examples there. I've, I've had clients with that. Um, and, uh, I've had clients doing that and I did know of a company and, uh, of a company, of a couple who had a very interesting [00:37:00] system.
Um, they were at stages in their careers where they changed jobs, I would say, about every two or three years and they did it so that one time she changed and so he would move along. Mm hmm. And. He would be at home. He would ensure that the, the transfer into the new country went well, the children were happy and everything, and then he would do some sort of, I would say, consulting work, but not full time to, to ensure.
And then the next time around, it was his turn. Mm. Mm. Which was quite, which was, um, yeah, quite interesting. Yeah, almost having that choice of who's taking a back seat and who's really taking that career advancement and giving it their all. I love that story. Thank you for sharing. Yeah, I've had two clients where the, yes, the, the fathers, um, yeah, stopped working when they moved to France.
They're gone full time, full time children house, the lot. Mm hmm. [00:38:00] Mm hmm. So it's out there. Anyone listening, it is possible. Those are discussions that we can have. Those are discussions that I think that actually probably women might be scared to ask their partner. Um, but that maybe one would discover that there are many, many more men who would actually be very happy to stay at home.
So one of the things that I was thinking about when I had maternity leave for the first time is almost that you have this break in your life. where everything has changed for you. Priorities have changed and you kind of emerge as a different person. And I was thinking what a shame it is, what a pity that men don't have that same space to really think into like, here I am and I'm entering a new phase and maybe different things are important to me and maybe not, but there's almost a pause in mindset and thinking, which is.
You know, although it's also exhausting and busy and all of those things, there is a, there is a shift there. There is a [00:39:00] possibility shift. Yes, definitely. And probably I think that, I mean, I may be wrong because some, our people, women who it's not through maternity who do change. But I think that maternity, because we change because of that physically.
Well, maybe there's a mind shift as well. And I mean, we have these incredible hormone shifts that go through all of that. So yes, it makes you think. Learn. Learn. When you think about getting through life, I don't want to say getting through, but living life in a way that was healthy and still had pockets of joy and moments of contentment and, um, rather than just driving yourself from day to day.
What did you do to keep yourself healthy and well and rested? So, um, I'm not very good on the health side. Let's see, what? Sorry, let's see. I think that, [00:40:00] um, if you're very busy, I mean, uh, okay, so I'm not a sports fanatic. Um, I have, we in the family, there are five boys and one girl. Um, and the girl is even more of a sports fanatic than them.
So, I am surrounded by sports fanatics. So, I have a sort of reaction, that is for you guys, I'm not there at all. Um, probably because, um, as I'm one of these terrible people who want to win the whole time. Um, I quickly realized, you're not going to win on that front. So, don't go there, you know, sort of that sort of thing.
So, Yes, I'm hyperactive. Um, I'm always walking. Uh, I love swimming, but I'm, and I don't do it regularly enough and I never have, basically because yes, it's one of the things which should be a priority, but never was a priority. So cross it off, don't have time, which is not how you should [00:41:00] do it. Um, I've probably done more about my health and sports since the children.
uh, adults than before. But when, on the other hand, you see, when you have horses at home, um, you are dealing with something which is very physical because I was in stables at six in the morning dealing with two to three horses. every morning. Um, so you've got one hour of physical labor. Um, then I didn't ride them because they were horses for competitions, but I used to walk them.
So yeah, all weathers, you're out there walking for an hour. Um, And you've got, I don't know how many, hundreds of kilos on the end of a rope. Um, so you've got to be quite fit. I would say that after that, coming back to Paris, I went into a complete recess of not doing anything, which was very bad. I'm pretty good about food.
With that, um, it doesn't show. But, um, I'm, you know, we've always I've cooked and [00:42:00] eaten healthily. Um, we're not very fast food people, as such. But I think that today, yes, probably again, it's a space that I should have said right. Once a week I'm going to do this, I'm going to do dancing, or I'm going to go to do swimming.
Um, because it's also time for yourself. Which, uh, today I think it's wonderful that, um, a lot of women and professional women take time for that. Mm, mm. So it sounds like at the time you had, you know, your moment in the morning with your cup of tea and then you had work with the horses. And then your busy work day, um, and then parenting and then walking horses and then collapse into bed.
And looking back, you're saying it would have been nice, or it would have maybe even been possible, I just have to take it, the time for more swimming, or more walking, or even just reading a book, somebody, somewhere. Everything is, my doja, who is, um, a fitness [00:43:00] coach, um, always says, everything is possible if you set your mind to it.
And just, it's just a question of what are your priorities? So when she takes on, like, her parents, um, with her exercises and everything, she says, okay, this has to be a priority for you now. You're getting older. If you don't make it a priority, you're going to have issues, which is absolutely true. Should also say that to yourself much earlier on, what are my priorities?
And your health definitely should be a priority. Yeah, it should be. Yeah. And find something that you enjoy. Um, don't go into a sport that you don't enjoy because that's not gonna work. But yes, find something that you enjoy. I feel like that's such a good reminder, especially for people who are entrepreneurs.
Um, because I think we often run ourselves into the ground when we work for ourselves, thinking, you know, the business is resting on me. And we forget that if I don't have my [00:44:00] health, I can't do anything. It's not going to happen. And then the other thing with entrepreneurs is that we think that we are indispensable and that it's also slightly fleeing from other things.
I know that. Um, you know, if I'm, if I'm in an unhappy state, I can open my computer and work. And because of my work, I'm going to become happy, which is not very healthy. Um, and that is, I think, for entrepreneurs can be a slight issue. Yes, you can work yourself to the ground instead of saying, okay, it is five o'clock, I'm closing my computer and I'm going to go for a swim or I'm going to go for a walk, whatever.
Um, but no, health is really important. I think this is such a good point that you raise is I think for many capable professional women, Work almost becomes the easiest thing that they do in their day, right? [00:45:00] When you're dealing with teenagers or you're dealing with, you know, a marriage that has some conflict, or you're dealing with aging parents, or you're helping and serving in other ways, or there's complicated issues at hand.
Going to work and answering some emails and getting things done and moving projects along. That's like, I can do that. I used to say at the time, um, at the time we used to take three to four weeks in the summer for vacation. And when I used to get back to the office, I used to say, Oh, I can relax because yes, it could mean a family can be, I mean, a family is amazing and I would never change that ever, ever.
But it can be very draining. So, yes, I can, I can relate to that. I want to pause here and really normalize this piece of the conversation because I see it show up so often for [00:46:00] my hardworking professional. Clients where work almost becomes the easiest thing in their day to day, right? They are good at work.
They've been working for years. They've reached a position where they know what they're doing. They've got checklists. There are SOPs and KPIs. There are measures of success. There's a to do list that you can actually get done. And in a way that can be Relaxing when you think about the complexity of parenting or relationshipping or friendshipping or whatever else that we're doing out there in the real world, particularly when we are in situations that are, um, challenging for us on the long term, when we're caring for children who maybe have eating disorders, or we are with parents who are maybe losing functionality in some way or another, or another, or we are um.
With partners who are really stressed or depressed in some ways, and it [00:47:00] feels like there's a lot of energy required to hold that space and to support those people in our lives. Sometimes it can be such a relief to turn away from that and come back to a place where you know what you're doing or you're getting positive validation from your employees or your clients or your team members or your managers of like, Oh, this is something I know how to do.
This is something I can check off. This is something I can get almost a gold star against. And in this mess of, life where I am supporting other people that are struggling or I am in situations that I don't know if they're going to change. That can be really, really hard. So just a moment here to normalize this kind of situation, because what I also see is a lot of women making themselves wrong and feeling so much shame around that.
Work is often, um, A quote unquote, easy escape, uh, uh, a way to disconnect from things that are really difficult for us. And so when we notice ourselves working [00:48:00] extra, working in the evenings or working on the weekends, it can be helpful to stop and slow down and tune into, is this actually because something is required at work or I've got a pressing deadline or I've got commitments that I'm meeting.
Or is this a way for me to escape the other things that are going down and no judgment here, just a noticing of. Am I turning to work to avoid something? Or am I turning to work because I'm feeling uncomfortable feelings? Am I turning to work because it feels easier to deal with than something else going on here?
Or does it feel kind of that work is needing me right now? There's almost a different energy behind that. And getting clear on that, yeah. Also gives you a guideline or a pointer of where you might want to call in support for yourself and for going forward. So sending so much love to anybody who's in the situation right now.
Um, I know that it's something that I often work with my clients on, and I just really wanted to call [00:49:00] it out because I think it is more widespread than we know. And so having a look at why we are overworking and the roots of it can be really helpful to start shifting and changing. Or start calling in different ways of doing things to support ourselves and have a different kind of experience of life.
When you, when you look back and you think about support that you called in over the time, whether that be in your business or in your personal life or in your household, what do you look back and think, um, that was a really good investment or I should have done more of that. I should have done myself more support there.
Is there anything that sticks out for you? Well, I think that it is more important to have support at home, um, Then to earn more money that it's a real really important investment. Um, and you've got you if you do choose to have support at home You've got to have somebody with [00:50:00] who you're especially if it's with your children.
You've got to have be really confident about what's happening That's super, super important. Um, but if you find the right person, I think it's fantastic. Um, and a lot of the time, boys are better at looking after children. Just remember that because I've seen it happen. Um, and yes, they can be really, really good.
Um, they can be fantastic about picking up children from school, going with their pet, with their homework, um, you know, playing some games out of doors. etc. They can be really, really good at that. Um, I think that that is important. It's probably important to also list what are the things that you don't like doing and because you don't like doing them, you probably don't do them very well.
Um, like for me, it's the ironing. I'm absolutely, I hate ironing. Um, it's not that I don't, so I prefer to invest my [00:51:00] time to have somebody to do the ironing. Um, as such. No, I think you have to think up a little bit of that. Um, and then if you're lucky enough that you do have family who are close by, um, especially if you have parents, I know that a lot of people don't want to ask their parents because they don't want to.
feel that they owe something maybe to their parents, but I think that parents a lot of the time can be absolutely fantastic help. Um, I had my mother in law live in the house with us for 10 years and it was absolutely amazing. It was an amazing experience for everybody. Um, my children have never ever in their life complained of that.
ever. And, uh, she was an absolute lifesaver for me when I started my company. I mean a real lifesaver. The, you know, the whole household she used to run. Um, so, yes, I think that one shouldn't [00:52:00] hesitate to ask for help. It's, it's, it's always the same thing. You know, it's, it's difficult to ask for help, but I think that if you have parents who are close by, they're probably the best people to step in because you know you can trust them.
Ah, so much permission to ask for help and then to receive the help, right? So many women are very good at acknowledging and honoring and serving and not so good at taking and receiving, so. Yes, and, and accepting that, okay, uh. Mom's made soup and actually you wanted a salad in the evening, but she didn't make the soup.
Um, You have to do a little bit of a mind shift. Um, But yes, once you get there, it's fantastic and you can and you can share a lot of the time. Um, for women, um, You can you can bond with your mother or your mother in law. Um, because they, [00:53:00] they had a different life and they did things differently and you haven't probably had time.
If you started, went to university, started to work very quickly, probably haven't had time to go through that with the person. And I think it's pretty amazing as such. Such a richness and having different generations of women talk to each other and be with each other. Oh, yes. So for men too, it's just right now we're talking about us.
I think that I, well, I mean, I having lived that with my husband, I know that for him it was absolutely amazing to have his mother in the house. Absolutely amazing. Yeah. So in closing, Fiona, what would you want to call out and feel proud of in yourself as all the things that you've held, all the things that you've done, all the things that you've created, all the things that you've built.
What are you, what are you most proud of? My children. My children. My [00:54:00] children are amazing, amazing people. Um, and I'm very proud of that because yes, it's apparent you have been part of that. That's for sure. Um, yeah, I'm very, very proud of that. I think it's fantastic when, when you have, uh, you know, children who, who just are happy people, balanced, happy people, um, who know what they want in life.
Um, and don't hesitate. I mean, one doesn't get there overnight. Um, but don't hesitate now to say, um, Yeah, I need some help. I'll thank you. I'm happy. Um, yeah, yeah, that's I'm very, yeah, I'm very, very, very proud of that. And I'm very proud of my love with my husband. Very proud of that. I've let you into a secret, which I say to my very close friends, but I'll share this with you.
I am the woman in the world who loves the most. So, there you are. I'm very, I mean, I'm very, [00:55:00] very proud of that because it is, it is so important. The most important things, I always say to everybody, the most important things in life, there are two things which for me are the most important. One is love.
Love is so important. It's, you know, as of day one, it's, it, you've got to love, you've got to really, really love. And then the other thing is to realize how important time is. Every second you've lost. So if you don't make every day a maximum of what you want.
But I'm not really proud. I mean, achievements, everybody has achievements in one area or not. And that, okay, that's a mixture of hard work and luck and everything. I'm not proud of that necessarily. No, it's more, it's more the rest of it. I love closing with that capacity to love it almost that being a decision right coming back to that over and over again of like, I want to love, I'm here to [00:56:00] love, I'm, I'm expanding that I'm sinking into that I'm giving that and, and also just a quick little note to.
Go back to, you know, those moments where your children say, Oh, we should have had more one on one dates, or we wanted more mommy time. And here you are saying, They're beautiful. They're well adjusted. They're fine. They're expressive. They're confident. Like, it's all worked out. It's exactly, it does work out.
If you love, if you love your children, your partner, your family as, to the maximum that you can. It works out. It goes through the bumps. I mean, we all have bumps. That's normal. That's life. Um, but it's the love that gets you through it. Beautiful. Well, thank you so much for the time, Fiona. It's been so lovely seeing you and talking to you.
Appreciate all of your shares. Thank you so much. Absolute pleasure. And thank you for everything that you do for all the women. It's wonderful what you do, Maud. It really is. Oh, you've lightened me up. Thank you so much, Fiona.[00:57:00]
Ah, I love having these conversations so, so much. Thank you for being here, for listening to the Work Family Me podcast. If you want to connect with me in real life, I would love that. You can find me on LinkedIn, and I will put the link for my profile below, so you can just click on that and connect with me.
See you out there.