Motherhood, domestic labor, and feminism in Japan
Tanja McCandie is a Canadian national in her 40s living, working, and parenting in Japan with her son.
She works as an associate professor, advocates for gender and teacher development, and handles homework, laundry, and baseball games while her husband works abroad.
How? Let's check in.
We discuss:
a look at equality and feminism across different societal structures and the importance of advocating for women’s rights
permission for mothers to enjoy their work without the guilt
tips to discuss support with your partner so that you can both attend work events or conferences
the realities of being a “single” married parent
the need for more equality among men and women with domestic duties
the power of women having access to choices and financial wellbeing
a call to redefine masculinity
a reflection exercise to determine who is doing the bulk of the invisible labor in the home
the impact of having support and other women you can lean on when you need help
Prefer to listen to the podcast? Click here A conversation about work, motherhood, domestic labor, and feminism in Japan
This conversation with Tanja was so fun and so fire. Tanja is a Canadian woman in her 40s living in Japan with a child and her husband who works abroad. She works in the education sector. She's a professor and a lecturer and a teacher. And we talk through feminism, theory and practice. We talk about choices that women are making in today's society around working, around career, around family.
We talk about raising sons to be capable within a home when that's not necessarily what they see modeled in a society. We talk about relationship cycles of asking for change, parenting, burnout. The opportunities afforded when we can stay after work or work extra, intercultural relationship, dynamics and frameworks, friends, community, allies, the richness of community, the reality of options and opportunity and time and [00:01:00] support.
So I am so excited for you to dive into this. There are various points where I'm going to invite you to stop and think about the reality in your own lives. So watch out for those. Uh, let's dive in. Hi lovelies. This is Maude, women's burnout and leadership coach. You're listening to the work family, me podcast, a series of conversations with women from different cultures and industries around the world about the behind the scenes of. Earning money, parenting, being in relationship and adulting all at the same time.
Here we will discuss the challenges, ideas and support structures that show up in co earning dual parenting situations and talk through some helpful strategies and mindsets. Why? So that you, as a busy working woman, can learn from others, [00:02:00] implement what could make your life a little bit easier, and share these with your family, friends, and colleagues.
We are at the forefront of working, parenting, and relating in a totally different way to previous generations. And there can be so much value in validating this and learning with each other. I'm so happy that you're here. Let's dive into the conversation for today.
Hey, Tanja. So thanks for taking time out of your day, week, life to talk to me. We're in opposite seasons, opposite time zones. Um, I'd love for you to introduce yourself, maybe where you are, what your work is and what your family situation is. So, uh, my name is Tanja McCandie and I am based in Nagoya, Japan, where I've been in Japan now for about 22 or 23 years.
And I work in higher education. I'm a university English language teacher. So I'm currently working as a contract teacher, so a limited contract teacher. And then from this April, I'll be working as a tenured professor in a graduate program.
Amazing. And tell us about family, children, partners, dogs. What's the situation there?
I've been married for 15 years with my partner now for 20. We have, one child, one son, who's nine. And, I've been living apart from my husband now for two years. He's based in China for work. So still married, but living separately, which is rather common in Japan.
So you are Canadian by birth, is that right?
I am Canadian by birth, yes, yes. Canadian living in Japan.
And one of the things that I have, uh, seen maybe through your Facebook post is that [00:04:00] you're also, would you say you're a staunch feminist? Is that fair to say?
I very much am a staunch feminist. I've just finished my doctorate of education and my dissertation topic actually was how to empower women's career mobility and higher education in Japan. So looking at some of the barriers that impede career development and career mobility, upward career mobility for female academics here in Japan.
And so how has it been being somebody who believes in. equity and equality for women and men and living in quite a different culture. What's that like? I can see you smiling as I asked the question.
Um, it can be rather difficult at times. Um, so I do publish a lot on sort of, you know, again, the barriers that women face. In Japan, in terms of, you know, career, and I have been [00:05:00] told that, uh, some of my publications in my, my field is, you know, I'm brave for daring to speak out. I've been told that, um, it's very difficult to get me through a hiring committee, given My, um, research articles and my publications and some of my presentations and the advocacy that I do for, um, women's rights.
Uh, I've been told that I should stick more towards English language publications and research rather than, um, Rock the boat as a, as a non Japanese woman. I've already got two strikes against me. I'm, I'm not Japanese and I'm also a woman. So I'm already kind of a hard, a hard, a difficult choice, I guess.
And I don't have the male privilege, but I don't also have the Japanese privilege when it comes to hiring. So, it can be quite difficult. I've, I've [00:06:00] learned to die on different hills, I guess, and pick my battles a little more wisely. And I think, uh, my advocacy now is not as upfront and as in your face as it used to be.
I've been burned a couple of times because of that. And I've now learned that, you know, it's perhaps quiet and slow creeks and rivers that move the boulders out of the way. Um, whereas before I was very much on the surface paddling frantically, I guess. And I've learned that that doesn't necessarily move things forwards and, and can annihilate, you know, the people that I need as allies, you know, particularly men, non Japanese men who also face their own sort of discrimination and, and barriers and whatnot. So if we can form allies together, um, I get, I get more things done, I guess. Um, you know, and I hate saying that because it's, it's, you know, partly why we need feminism. But, you know, if I can be [00:07:00] nicer and, and less shouty, I guess.
Um. They seem to, to, it seems to work better here. Um, statistics and whatnot and in your face information is, is definitely not appreciated coming from a non Japanese woman when it, when it comes to, you know, discrimination and barriers for women, but also for non Japanese. So staunch feminist, but I'm learning how to play my cards a little bit better.
I wanted to pause here with the word feminism. What happens in your body, what happens in your mind, what happens in your emotional space when you think, feel, hear feminism? I think one of the cons that we can experience in the Western world is how feminism has almost become a very charged word. It brings up a lot of stuff and we have this messaging around it that it's angry. It's unacceptable. It is ugly in some kind of a way and I want to just scratch underneath that to what we're talking about. We're talking about a social, political, cultural movement that's advocating for people. Equal rights and opportunities and treatment of women as well as men. Yes, there is a focus on addressing historical inequalities that disproportionately affect women, because legitimately we have been existing in a patriarchal structure for a long time, right?The norms that have been created, societies, companies, organizations that have been created over the last thousands of years have been created. by men and largely for men. So when we're talking about feminism, we're talking about equality between men and women. We're talking about equal opportunities in education and employment.
We're [00:09:00] talking about rights around bodies. We're talking about ending gender based violence. We're talking about challenging stereotypes. And promoting a more diverse understanding about what it means to be a woman or a man. There's a beautiful book called We Should All Be Feminists. And I would invite you to think about your relationship to feminism. Do you see it as something that you're advocating for? Do you see yourself as a feminist? And do you bring up your children to talk about themselves as feminists? Like what place does the word hold for you? What energy does it hold for you? What's your relationship to it? Um, so that we can start unpacking that a little bit for ourselves.So just a little side note here around, um, noticing the charge or overlaid assumptions or messages that we might [00:10:00] get around feminism and thinking for yourself what your definition is and bringing it back down to that call for equity and equality amongst genders.
So on two levels, I'm, there's almost like the big picture. Advocating for change in a society and a sociocultural context, and then there's also living day to day life in that context as a woman and a mother and a professional with the barriers and the challenges. So you've almost got the macro and the micro and you're raising a son in that context as well.
Yeah. Huge. It's, it's, you know, it's one of those things where I, you know, I'll be quite open in that my marriage is not, it's, What most people would assume my marriage is, um, given that I am such a staunch feminist, I'm married to a very traditional man who at the beginning seemed to be quite progressive in thinking, but then, you know, once you have kids come along, I think for a lot of women everything changes and you perhaps realize that the person you married, um, their values and their, you know, supposed progression is not really aligned with, with your views. Um, so I think having a, having a child certainly made me far more aware of the barriers, um, when I was child free. I don't think I struggled as much as I, as I do now in terms of work because, you know, I could stay late. I could go out. I could network. I could go drinking with the boys. Um, and as soon as I had a child, all of that was taken away from me. And so, yeah, having that view and the values that, you know, I believe in equity. And having opportunities, people having opportunities, regardless of the situation or their [00:12:00] intersectionality, um, the reality is that's not my home life.
So, you know, struggling, struggling with that in terms of wanting to have that within my marriage and within my employment, but that's not what has been, I guess, afforded me in society and in my relationships.
So when you think about growing up, what kind of generational pattern did you come from? And maybe what did your partner come from?
So my parents are divorced and my mom was a single mom for a couple of years. And my mom really embedded in my older sister and I, that You needed to make sure that you were financially secure and, and you had your, you know, you were independent, financially independent, and, and you always had enough money to be able to leave whatever relationship you were in.Um, that was drilled into us as young children to the point where, [00:13:00] you know, my mother at one point said that both my sister and I were, were too independent and maybe we should give a little bit more in our relationships. Um, so yeah, my mother got remarried, but my mother continued to work. Um, my stepfather took early retirement.
So my mom was, you know, the breadwinner for a while. He decided to go back to work, but my mom was the breadwinner for a while. So, you know, we had that side. And then from my father's side, my, my father also got remarried and, and had a stay at home, um, wife. I, I'm not, you know, in Japan. In, in Japan, you know, the term housewife is still so respected where I know it's not in English language, so I'm struggling here. Homemaker, I guess is, is the word. Um, so she didn't, she didn't. For money outside of the house, you know, she worked obviously in the house, but she didn't work outside. Um, so having those two very different. You know, families in one [00:14:00] family culture was quite interesting, um, whereas my husband's parents were through Omiyai, which is kind of like, kind of like a, an arranged marriage, a Japanese arranged marriage in which two families sort of, you know, there's choice there. It's not, it's not like they, they just met on, on, on the wedding day or anything like that. But, you know, two families kind of came together and made the suggestions that their kids marry each other. Um, and there's, there's all kinds of reasons for that, you know, financial security, family name, whatnot. That's my husband's family, and his mother was also, um, a homemaker. So he didn't grow up with a, you know, a mom who was working outside the home, um, very much a stereotypical Japanese mom, in that, you know, the, the children were very, very dependent on her for, for everything. And then he married me. So [00:15:00] it's quite different.
Two very different pictures and generations coming in full.
Yes. Yeah.
And it sounds like getting together in the early days, there's talks and theories about how things might be in your relationship. And then the reality of having a child and becoming a family happens and then things change in practice. How would, how would a regular week have looked when you were working together in the In your life with your situation.
Uh, before having a child or having a child?
Post having a child, pre husband in China.
Um, post having a child, pre husband in China. Oh boy. Um, you're not going to get the feminist answer on this one.
Let's just say that's almost the interesting thing about this because there's the there's the desire. Exactly. And then the practice of how does this actually get implemented? And what are the [00:16:00] challenges in in implementation? Right?
Okay, here we go. Um, so I took six months off for maternity leave, I went back when my son was six months old, and he went into daycare. Mainly to not have, even though I was on a contract position at that point, and I wouldn't have had a gap in my resume, there's still that fear, you know, particularly in academia, publisher parachute, if you, if you step off the Ferris wheel, you're not getting back on. Um, and in Japan, you need to have a full time job to get daycare, and you have to have daycare to get a full time job. So I, you know, I took six months. Another one of those conundrums.
Exactly. And, and, you know, for us, it was a big thing that there was no way I was taking more time off. To put myself at risk of not being able to get daycare and to be able to work. I know a lot of people are, are, you know, they love [00:17:00] babies. I am not a baby person.
I want to pause here with two things. Number one, this phrase and permission and self awareness when Tanja talks about, I'm a better mom being at work. I feel like so many of my one on one clients really chastise themselves, criticize themselves for enjoying the part of themselves that likes work, that likes earning money, that likes being productive in a, in a workspace, that likes having colleagues, that likes leaving the house, that likes getting dressed, that likes, um, You know, having different ideas and intellectual stimulation, and they see that as a thing that they should feel guilty about. Right. They should be guilty about liking that or enjoying that or that being a piece of themselves that they want to preserve and protect. And I love this permission for us to think about, um, what. about that we enjoy, what about that [00:18:00] makes us feel like a whole human, and that that can be part of what makes us more tolerant, more loving, more creative, more fun as a parent, as a mother.
So, so much permission for all of us to enjoy our work, so much permission for us to see working as part of, um, parenting and showing up as a human in different areas and not necessarily separate to. The other thing that I wanted to pick out and highlight as Tanja's talking around, um, after hours work drinks or meetings or opportunities or staying late is that sometimes career advancement is more than a nine to five, some jobs require more in their career.
In the responsibilities, I think there's a fun quote of calling those greedy jobs. You can't see me, but I'm making little quote marks. And sometimes there are after hours networking [00:19:00] events or, um, opportunities or meetings that maybe aren't necessarily part of the job, but are part of building that brand or building that visibility that allows for opportunities in the future.
So, if that's something that we feel excited about, um, it may be worth having a discussion with your partner around what the expectations there are for each other and what support is available for each other. Is there support for both partners to be able to stay late or to attend after work events or to be able to go away on conferences? What allowance are you making for each other to be able to be part of those? After hours events and mixes and conferences and networking opportunities. If that's something that you'd want to attend, because it does often have an impact on a career, not just now, but in terms of opportunities for the future.
So, you know, for me, a happy mom [00:20:00] is a happy family. And I know that I was a better mom being at work. So I went back to work at six months. Um, when my child was six months, my husband did take two months of paternity leave off. Um, but I was home for out of the eight weeks, I was home for four of those weeks and sort of trying to teach him how to learn the ropes, but then also while I was home and then the next month, my son started daycare, so he was never, he was home with the baby for a week by himself, really. Um, so then that happened. And then. Oh, here we go. I was doing all the cooking, um, weekdays, so my husband was coming home when my son was first born. He would leave at around 7 o'clock in the morning and come home around 9, 9. 30 at night. So, you know, I would go to work and then come back and look [00:21:00] after my son.So mainly weekdays. Days, cooking, cleaning, daycare pick up, daycare drop off, laundry, everything was up to me. Um, except bath time, he would do bath time when he came home, and then on weekends he would, you know, pitch in. So I guess, I don't, I don't know if you're familiar with the term visible labor, or performative parenting.
Um, that is a huge issue in Japan. I think it's a huge issue everywhere in that dads will do things outside of the home or with the children that people can see. Um, but the invisible labor and the mental load, um, has certainly been left up to me when I got a tenured position, my son was two and I started working a tenured position.
Um, I insisted that he do daycare pickup once a week. And that was after, you know, some pleading and whatnot in terms of, you know, I had meetings and I needed to stay late. And. [00:22:00] You know, for him, he was like, well, I'm going to have to change my schedule. And for me, it was just like, Oh no, you're going to have to change your schedule one day, whereas my whole entire life has been upended.
So that kind of started, that's where it really did start for me to see. The, the differences between, you know, I've always been a feminist, but it really wasn't until I had my child and that impacted my career mobility and opportunities, I guess, you know, when you don't have a child, you can go out, you know, I, and I hate to say it, but I was a bit of a pick me as well, you know, I enjoy going out, enjoy going to dinners and going to bars and things like that.
So, you know, I was, yeah. One of the women who was, who did get invited by the boys club to go out. So I was, you know, in hindsight, a pick me. And now I call that out, you know, not, I was [00:23:00] completely unaware, but I guess, you know, live and learn. Um, so yeah, it was, it was, um, the domestic labor, I would say it was 90 to 95 percent on me, child rearing was on me.Um, except for, you know, the, the weekend daddy syndrome and I, and you know, I guess in Japan you, you know, it can kind of be the single, the single dad syndrome, I guess. And in Japan that's very true. Even if you're married, you know, I was a still am, you know, a married single mother, so the domestic labor is on me. I still worked full time. You know, I bring in, you know, at one point I was earning more than he was. Um, but there was not the 50 50. It was, you know, like I said, it was maybe a 90, 10 percent in terms of labor, domestic labor.
Now that he's in China, it's, it's all on me. Um, but I will say it's easier when it's all on me [00:24:00] because there's not the expectation that your partner is going to step up. So knowing that it's on you, there's no negotiation. There's no, I guess that, you know, your partner is going to swing by the grocery store and pick up the milk that they know that we need when, when you're busy. So, yeah, it's been, it's been an interesting experience in terms of realizing that being, I guess, a single, an actual single parent, not a married single parent with the partner in the house.
It's easier in a lot of ways. So it's not exactly the feminist lifestyle that I hope for and, and, you know, and I guess this is part of the reason why I am so vocal about this now is that I, you know, I don't, you know, speaking with my mother, it's, it's very similar to the situation with my father. And, you know, it's 30 years later and it's still the same fight.
And I don't want women of, you know, the younger generations having to go through this as well. So, you know, I am trying to raise my son to be aware, to be a feminist, you know, to, you know, we have these discussions, it's really hard, you know, people will say, oh, you know. Boys will be boys, and I'm like, Boys will be held accountable for their behavior, and, and girls are also girls, and they, you know, act, they have, you know, quote unquote boy tendencies and things like that, and, you know, trying to instill the values in him, that just because you know, a girl is a girl doesn't mean that it's her job to be nice and quiet and, and pick up after the boys and that kind of attitude that is so, so prevalent here in terms of how, you know, sons and daughters are raised.
So, you know, maybe if I had a daughter, it would be, I, I would be different. Maybe if I had both a son and a daughter, I might be raising them differently without me knowing that really. But, you know, as it is, you know, he's, he's nine, he's learning how to cook, he cleans, he vacuums, he does all these things.
I, I don't want him to be. You know, I guess in harsh terms, I don't want him to be a useless partner. I want him to, you know, if he decides to have kids in the future, I want him to be a good dad, you know, a hands on father, not just, you know, performative outside the home or just playtime daddy, you know. I want him to, you know, to do the cooking, to do the cleaning, to do the laundry without having to be asked, without having to have a list given to him, you know, without being nagged at to do that kind of thing.
So, raising him with that awareness that. If there's socks on the floor, they need to be picked up and put away. So that kind of, and it's, again, it's easier when there's not that sort of, [00:27:00] I hate saying, I feel like I'm trashing my husband, but they're not having that negative visual or role model. He's not seeing an adult male leave his socks on the floor. So there's not this, well, daddy's doing it sort of thing that there used to be.
So yeah. Two things there. Number one, I think what I have felt a lot of rage around and actually the beginnings of these conversations stemmed from the fact that we talk so much about women in the workplace and there's this huge focus on the small progress that's being made in that area, but great. Two - we're not talking so much about men in the domestic arena, in the childcare arena, and as you were talking about, you know, you stepping back into full time work, there needs to be the support at home or from a domestic childcare homemaking point of view to allow the progression in career, money making, all of those things outside of the home. And [00:28:00] we tend to focus so much on the one, which makes women feel like another thing I have to do, another place I have to achieve and not so much on, well, what allows that to be possible? It is to have the support in the home space.
Men have not kept up with women. I mean, there's, there's just no other way to say it at this point. You know, we are, again, I could give you, I could give you readings. I could, I could give you academic literature on this. You know, we're far more educated. Um, we work longer hours when you, when you combine, you know, paid labor versus domestic labor, we don't stop, we, we run circles around what men do, but, you know, a lot of that is the expectation of what men should do, and we still live in a society, you know, particularly in Japan, man goes to work, man makes money, and you know, woman may make money, but her, her income's not the [00:29:00] main income. And she needs to look after the house and the children. And the reality is in 2024 we're making more money than we've ever made before. We don't need partners that are not going to step up. We don't need their money. We need their support. We need present fathers, present husbands who don't need to be given lists of things that they need to do. They need to look around the house and say, Oh, hey, you know, there's dishes in the sink. I should do those dishes.
The reality is. You know, one of the things that I keep seeing is that when it comes to partnerships, single men don't realize that they're not competing with the top 10%, top 15 percent of men. They're competing with the comfort of a woman being happy being single. And not having [00:30:00] to look after somebody else who really should have the ability to look after themselves. So it's, it's, you know, it's the whole, you know, the, the alpha beta, whatnot, women are not picking horrible partners anymore.
They're not picking men that are going to turn into children as soon as they have a child. You know, they're, they would rather stay single. My, my younger sister is single. She's 35. She's brilliant. She's gorgeous. And she's not settling. And it's fantastic that women are not settling. The only issue is, is when are we going to start having expectations, higher expectations for men and their behavior?
Making a lot of friends on this one, aren't I? We're all your tribe.
We're talking here about women having access to choices, choices [00:31:00] around whether they want to marry, whether they want to have children, what they want to do with their career, what kind of partnership they want to be part of. And I wanted to say two things.
Number one, that is relatively recent for women. We, a hundred years ago, couldn't even have a bank account in our name. We often couldn't own land. So really this is a, quite a recent evolution for us, which provides us with that support and foundation, if we've had access to it, to have choices around the decisions that we're making in terms of partnership, working, family, or not, as the case may be, and we see that reflected in society and what women are doing these days.
I also want to highlight this because I think often in, um, in company of women and maybe in general, it's seen as slightly shameful to be talking about money, or making money. Or like money is not important to me. You're like, I'm not doing this for the money or whatever it is.
And full permission for money to legitimately be safety for us to create opportunity for ourselves. When we think about what marriage was in the past as a practice, often for women, it was that guarantee of a home. Security, safety, somebody to provide for us. And now as that shifts and changes, we are able to have access to different choices and different opportunities because we have money in the bank or because we have access to resources, because we have financial wellbeing.
So if you are somebody who wants to leave options available for themselves, or who's in a relationship and is thinking about making a change, for example, studying or your partner taking time off work, or you potentially leaving the relationship [00:33:00] because it doesn't feel like the partnership is working for you.I'd encourage you to get nitty gritty with your finances and actually look at your budget. What's coming in, what's going out, what savings do you have? What investments do you have? Um, often with my clients, this can be really, um, challenging tasks to get into, but also really helpful in allowing them to know.
What their options are going forward. So financial wellbeing is such a key in terms of safety and options and opportunities. And I think it's one that we don't talk about enough as a women in society these days.So thinking about that in your dynamic, in your family dynamic. So you're then having conversations about, Hey, I want to go back to full time work. I want to have an evening free. I want you to be stepping up to support. How did that go in practice?
Um, it didn't. It didn't go. Um, you know, [00:34:00] there was, there was, and I think a lot of women will be used to this cycle of you have a blow up, or you have a breakdown and you cry and you beg and you plead, and there's effort made for a week or two weeks, you see change for a week or two, you live on hope, and then it slides back into that cycle of You know, he slides back into things, you, again, increase your effort around the house, you get stressed out, you feel the rage, and then you blow up, and then it just becomes this really toxic cycle.
So, um, that's how it, it went, really. I mean, I'm also living in a culture where there's, there's no, there's no culture of babysitters, there's no culture of, Really, you know, cooperative partnership and, and I don't want to say happiness in terms of your marriage, but, you know, marriage here is kind of a contract, you know, women need the income there, you know, there's still, you take a look at the [00:35:00] gender, um, index rankings for Japan, you know, they're like I think they ranked 131 this year out of 155, 56 countries. It's the worst. It's the lowest in terms of any developed nation. Um, so there's still very much a belief that men go to work and make the money and women stay home. And. It's a contract, you know, women will provide domestic labor and men will provide a roof over the heads and you'll see in younger generations of Japanese women there, you know, similar to Korean women there, they're on a silent strike.
They're not getting married. They're not having kids. There's massive issues with, um, population drops because of this. And. As you mentioned earlier, we kind of look at it as in the issue is we need to fix the behavior of the women. How can we entice women to have kids? How can we entice women to have, you know, to get married?
And it's like, well, no, how do you entice men [00:36:00] to step up and, and, and be equals? You know, and being equals with that is not just about financial capability and earnings. It's, it's what can you provide in the house? What can you provide for your children? What can you provide in terms of, you know, mental support or physical comfort or things like that?
So. Yeah, it's almost this redefinition of masculinity, right? Redefinition of what it means to be a man and what it means to be in a partnership, which is happening in some places and happening in some communications and happening in with some individuals, but isn't a global movement as yet. Yet.
Yet. Well, I mean, I don't think we're gonna, we're not, we're not gonna get to all of the, uh, I can't, what is, what's his name? Tate? What's, what's his name?
Yeah, Andrew. You know, um, but I think the whole thing with toxic masculinity, you know, it's [00:37:00] And then, you know, that's another thing that comes up, you know, when I, when I do speak to men about things and it's like, well, you know, women are the ones who tell us not to cry. And I'm like, well, you know, actually toxic masculinity was created by men. It wasn't created by women. It's the whole thing in terms of, you know, the power harassment and the horrible working conditions that, that men undergo, more so in Japan. You know, society has been created by men for men, and the society that men have created is no longer working. It's not working for them.
And, you know, men do have the power, you know, not to say that they all have power, they don't, but, you know, men have the power to change things. The question is, are they going to? Do they, do they see a need to? And I think that you end up having less powerful men being the ones who are very frustrated with the system.And they're frustrated in the system, so who do they blame? They blame women. And [00:38:00] it's, we're not the ones who created this. You know? Toxic masculinity is, is what is basically destroying society. And I do think there is progression and change in that regards, but, you know, that progression and change is not fast. It's not as fast as women being, you know, financially independent and educated and being able to provide for themselves and whatnot. So I think you've got, there's an imbalance there in that women are stepping up and not needing financial support or care from men. But, you know, men still feel entitled to have a wife who's going to look after the kids in the house and whatnot, and that's where, you know, divorce rates are climbing.
And, you know, it's like 70 to 80 percent of divorces are filed by women. And, you know, we're not the ones who have the financial security to be doing that. But it's gotten to the point where women are now looking around saying, you know what, [00:39:00] I'd rather do this on my own, and I'd rather be less financially secure and have peace.
One of the things that you talked about earlier with your sister, and I see this as well with kind of colleagues and peers my age, is making the choice not to be in partnership because what they see in families and in couples doesn't feel supportive of their career and their health and their emotions. What I'm also seeing is, as you say, women who are in those kinds of relationships making different choices, making choices where Partners live away, partners work away and financially support, um, they hire and support, they get mothers to move in with them. They leave that situation. So there is the kind of change where we're saying, or where more and more women are saying, actually, this is not working for me. And calling in or paying for different kinds of support, which sounds like it's really difficult in Japan. [00:40:00] What kind of support do you have? Can you pay for? Is there cleaning? Is there anything? You talked about babysitting not being an option. I'm assuming you don't have family around the corner.Yeah, I mean, Japan, it's a bit of a paradox in that. Um, you know, they do have cleaning services, but the cleaning services are generally, For, you know, double income families that I would say, you know, are the, you know, the 1 percent um, for everyday cleaning services, you know, most your average, your average family couldn't afford it. Um, even if they are both working.
So for me personally, I would love a cleaning service. I haven't made that decision yet. Um, but yeah, there's not a lot of options for cleaning services. There's not a lot of options for, you know, for babysitting. It's, it's almost impossible. You know, you, I have formed relationships with Japanese women. Who are in similar situations as, as me, and we do a [00:41:00] lot of things with the kids.
I, you know, I have a wonderful neighbor, um, up the street, Japanese woman, who unfortunately just moved to Finland. Her husband just got transferred to Finland. She lived in Canada for a year. So she's, you know, she's got a Western, Western experience and, and, and, you know, a little more, I guess, open minded in that sense.
So when I did have business trips. She would take my son, you know, for a couple of nights. Um, you know, just in the last year I was able to go to Uzbekistan for, uh, for a conference to be a keynote speaker. She took my son for five nights, so I was able to do that. Um, but those kinds of relationships are very rare here.
You just face, you know, there's, there's, you know, cultural implications where asking for help is just not as easily done, I think, as Canadians do, and I guess, you know, it's, you know, it takes a community, you know, it takes a, what is it? It takes a community to raise a kid. [00:42:00] Um, that's not necessarily here.
There's still a lot of expectation that, um, the grandparents are going to step up. And they'll be the ones to provide, you know, child care and whatnot, but that's really not the reality anymore if you were living in a city. You know, my in laws are two and a half hours away, so I don't have that option. Um.But for a lot of, you know, working moms, they do, it's, it's grandma has to come in, um, or there are, you know, they put their kids in sort of like tutoring classes after school and whatnot, and, and, you know, swimming lessons and Kumon and things like that. So, you know, my son does, my son does do that. Um, and he's getting a little bit older now that he's able to be a little more independent and stay home a little bit more by himself.
But yeah, there's not a lot of services here like home and, and, and like in like many other countries, you know, I've, I've been to [00:43:00] conferences when my, when my husband was here, I was able to go to conferences, obviously much more frequently weekend conferences and whatnot. And I remember traveling to Australia for a conference.
And I was sitting with, um, some Indonesian, Indonesian and Malaysian, um, female professors and they were shocked that I didn't have a cook and a cleaner. And they just said, how do you manage? And I was like, I'm not managing. I'm not managing at all. Like I'm hanging on by a thread here. I'm not managing at all, you know. We had, we had an argument one night because I was going to a lot of conferences, you know, I had a great research budget and I wanted to go and network and learn and, you know, he said, you treat these conferences as if they're a holiday. And I was just like, they are, I'm not cooking. I'm not cleaning. I'm not looking after the child. I'm going and delivering a presentation. I'm not doing anything [00:44:00] any differently than what a, what a, what a male academic does when they go away to a conference, to a conference. But, you know, the, the implication there was that. He didn't, he felt that I was perhaps not being a good mother because I wasn't chained to, you know, like it's one of those things that, you know, like when you speak to women, when you go to conferences and you speak to mothers, um, and you listen to all the preparation that they do. Before they go to a conference, you know, they, they make sure that the child care is taken care of, they make sure that, you know, the, the emergency number, it's, it's, it's, and I hate saying this, but it's also for, like, they're babysitters of their own children, men are not babies, fathers are not babysitters, they're parents, but it's like, you know, the emergency numbers are here. And I've made a casserole or I've got, you know, the pressure cooker, you know, everything I've made meals and I've labeled everything and I put it in the fridge and [00:45:00] everything is organized. All he has to do is make sure that the kids don't die. Men go to conferences and they just may or may not pack their own bag and walk out the door.
And, and so it's. You know, he, he got a little bit frustrated. I think that I, you know, I was jetting off to Australia or Thailand or Cambodia, Russia for conferences. And for me, they were, it was an equalizer. I was working, I was, you know, I was networking, I was presenting, I was writing, you know, follow up papers and whatnot for publications.
But I also got, you know, maybe once every two months, two to three days where I didn't have to cook and clean and do everything. So, you know, it's a, it's a big thing, just that in itself. And so many women are not able to go to these places and do these things because they don't have the financial budget or they don't have the status at work.
But also there's a [00:46:00] lack of trust in their partner to be able to look after their, their children properly.
Little side note here that conferences or travel away from the family unit is such a great little marker or litmus test about who's doing what, right? If it's easy for you to walk out the door from your family, then it's probably reflecting that there's not a lot that you're responsible for within that family.
And if it's really, really challenging and you're needing to do a whole lot of preparation before you walk out the door, And feeling a whole lot of things and planning a whole lot of things and prepping a whole lot of things. It's probably an indication that you are holding the bulk of those things and probably invisibly so within your household or within your family.
So that can be an interesting reflection exercise. How easy would it be for me to walk out and go to a conference? How easy would it be for my partner to walk out and go to a conference? What does that surface around? What we're responsible for within our [00:47:00] home or within our family context. And are there some conversations that need to happen so that we're holding a more equal share of that?
And it would be possible for either of us to go. And at that stage, either of us would maybe need to do some things and plan some things, but it feels a little bit more fair. So I love this kind of practical real life scenario of a situation that surfaces. What is going on invisibly within a home or within a family context.
So when you think about keeping yourself healthy and well, when you think about both physically, time for exercise, sport, or things that regulate your nervous system, or things that clear your mind, what do you draw on now as Uh, tools, strategies, time.
Oh, mental health? Oh boy. So while my partner was here to, you know, I do have flexibility with my job.
I mean, that's not to say that I don't have [00:48:00] flexibility with my job. Um, Since my son was born, I have been able to run a couple of marathons. Um, I was doing weight training and things like that. So, you know, it's not all doom and gloom to be, to be honest. Um, the pandemic was really hard.
How did you set that in, like, in the reality of a 24 hour a day, where the training for a marathon comes in?
Because I want to get back into it. And now I'm like, how did I do this? Like, how did I, how did I manage to, to do these things? Um, you know, now that I'm on my own, It's, it's less, it's, it's, it's happening a lot less. I mean, I think had we not had the pandemic and had we not had sort of, you know, the lockdowns and stay at home and the kids home and whatnot, you know, I'm sure I would have continued with that, but I've lost the momentum.
So now it's a matter of trying to restart every couple of weeks. I try and restart something and then it. Falls apart by a week or so. Um, [00:49:00] mentally, I have to say, as I get older, the friendships that I have become more important. The, the, the support, um, particularly, you know, from my girlfriends has, has, has just really been what has gotten me through a lot of things.Um, physically I could be a lot better, um, you know, I do cycle, I do, you know, I do, I do do some stuff, but it's not like I used to do. Um, again, when I had, when I did have my partner around so that I could, you know, go out for a half an hour or, you know, 45 minutes for a run or whatnot. Um, but I think in terms of like mental health for me.
It's the relationships, and it's having, you know, I have a range of friends, you know, from, that I speak to regularly, from 65 [00:50:00] down to, I want to say 30. So, you know, there's, there's varying life experiences happening there, and you know, I think, You know, most of my friends are feminists, you know, that I would say they're staunch feminists and, you know, I'm looking at a lot of my friends who are leaving their husbands, you know, COVID particularly was like, everybody was getting divorced.
Um, so looking at their relationships and listening to their stories and. You know, providing support for them, but also having that, that reciprocal support for me as well is, is what has made this possible, you know, all, you know, it's, I talk about, you know, I kind of think about, you know, we, we juggle so much and there's, there's rubber balls and there's glass balls.
You know, I got to keep the glass balls in the air and my friends are very supportive and how I can keep those glass balls in the air. And when the rubber balls, [00:51:00] when I drop a rubber ball, you know, it can bounce back up and come back in, or it can just roll and stay on the ground. And that's fine. Cause it's rubber.
So, you know, juggling all of that, but just looking at how other women have. Overcome situations, you know, similar situations. Not wanting, you know, it's, you know, my older friends are kind of like, learn from my mistakes, kind of thing, and I'm like, you know what? I used to be stubborn before, and I wanted to make my own mistakes, and now I'm just gonna learn from your mistake, cause it's just, it's better if I learn from your mistake rather than repeat it.
Um, I do have, I think, you know, I have some really amazing male friends. who give incredible insight to situations and frustrations that I have in terms of, you know, like being married and whatnot. Um, so their insights are very, very valuable. You know, their insights are very, very valuable. [00:52:00] And sometimes they're like, you know what, you're being a little bit of a B I T C H.
And then other times they're like, Whoa, Nope, Nope. That's not okay. That's not good. And so when you have that insight from Men, you know, and, and husbands and, and, and, and fathers, that's also very good. You know, I think women get gaslit constantly, you know, when, when we want better treatment or we feel that we deserve more and, you know, it's not to say that women, you know, having women say, Oh no, that's not, that's not okay.
And that's not cool. You know, that's great to hear, but sometimes it's just, you know, the validation that you get from hearing that from a male perspective. At times it's just like, okay, I'm not crazy. So that that's been quite helpful as well. But I think, you know, for me, my friendships are just. I am extremely grateful for the people that I have in my life.
Um, it's been a long journey to find those people. You know, [00:53:00] I think for COVID, I cut a lot of people out and, and I was cut out from a lot of people's lives because I think at that point we're all just in survival mode. Um, but you know, it's quality, not quantity. And I think it, you know, for, I'm 46 now, and I feel like for the first time in my life, I have a very good core group of people.
That just want the best for me and I want the best for them, you know, there's no, there's no jealousy or there's no this, that and the other thing and, and, you know, it's taken a long time to get that, you know, women are not always kind to each other, you know, when we're, when we're putting competition and, and, you know, we are pitted against each other and, and we do pit ourselves against each other.
So to get to this stage in my life now where I, you know, I, I have people around me [00:54:00] who, you know, it's that, you know, that whole saying of like, you want to be with people who are going to mention your name when opportunities arise, you know, I have that finally in my life and it's the same thing, you know, if, if there's opportunities that are not for me, but, you know, matches one of my friends, I'll absolutely, you know, put their name forward, but then, you Also, offer to do childcare, offer to, you know, proofread, edit, work as a research partner, whatever it takes to have those opportunities for them. So I, you know, I think. Women are changing in that way. Um, but we still need the men to change. You know, we need the men to accept.
It sounds like such a, a, a richness and an intimacy in a way in your friendships and in your human connections and in the people that you've brought in around you. And I know that sometimes when we have that in our friendships, it almost also [00:55:00] highlights when we don't have that in our partnerships of almost the both. The bar is. You know, over here, in terms of connection and curiosity and interest and conversation, when we know that we can get that from another human.
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, I think, I think that's one of the things, you know, you know, a lot of people will say, Oh, you know, aren't you lonely because your husband's not here. And I'm just like, No, I'm not. Why would I be lonely? You know, being alone doesn't mean loneliness, and, and, if you foster your relationships outside of, you know, outside of your family as well, you know, it can't just be, you know, family, you know, your, your partner and your family, but yeah, I mean, there's, there's, there's no loneliness here at all, because I do have a very rich, um, community of, of friends that, um, you know, and I do have my family as well, but yeah, no, [00:56:00] I have, you know, amazing, amazing. I have an amazing group of women. You know, from all kinds of backgrounds, all different kinds of experiences. And it just, yeah, it's been great. It's been wonderful figuring it out with them, with their support.
Long may it continue. Lots of figuring out we've got to do over the next 40 years.
Like, can we just buy little houses, tiny houses in a little, you know, in a little cul de sac and we all just. Live together without the men. I mean, I'm sorry guys, for any guys who are listening to this, but you gotta work harder to prove that you're worthy of being in the little houses with us. I don't know. There are, there are, there are some out there, but, you know. It's not our, it's not, you know, and also too, it's not women's jobs to educate men on how to be better. I would like men to start holding men accountable.
Hmm, it's like you're saying, like, yeah, and also there are resources, there are [00:57:00] books, there are podcasts, there are Instagram channels, there are so many different resources to tap into now around co parenting. Um, communication relationships that I think largely have a female following.
Right. And they're like, well, I want those. Yes. I want those. The deficit is always the woman's fault, you know, and that's, and that's sort of the same thing in terms of career mobility. It's like, well, how can we. Better how can we better support women? What kind of skills can we give them? What kind of support can we give them? What kind of networking can we give them? And it's like why is it assumed that there's a deficit for women? It's not that there's a deficit. It's just we're playing a completely different game. We're held to different standards.
So, you know, I think maybe less expectation that women are, you know, gentle, gentle parenting and gentle partnership [00:58:00] and, and it's all geared towards women, self help books, everything. It's all geared towards us as if we're the issue. Sorry, some of us are. I am. Don't get me wrong. I can be, absolutely be the issue.But, you know, a lot of our, when we are the issue, it's because we're reacting. To unfairness, we're reacting to the frustration of we've worked hard. We look at where, you know, quite frankly, mediocre men are, and they're still above us. And so that, you know, that's, it's rage inducing sometimes. And then it's just like, Oh, well, if you just get another publication, or if you just, you know, do something else, but it's, you know, the, the male centric workforce and environments and networking and nepotism. And it's not that women have a deficit. It's that we're not given the same opportunities. [00:59:00] And yeah, and one of the things that I always give men the same opportunities when it comes to parenting as well. I mean, I do. We are, if I could go back and redo a couple of things, I would, you know, maybe walk out and go for a walk for 10 minutes while the baby's screaming and let him figure out how to calm the baby down on his own rather than maybe like, Oh, just give him to me and I'll look after him.
Cause I know I can quiet him down in 30 seconds. You know, so we, we kind of enable that learned helplessness, I guess. I know that I have, I'm not saying that every other woman has, but I certainly have.
Which I think comes back as well to structure, right? When we have a parental leave that is geared for maternity leave, then it makes sense that you then know all the tricks and you know how to get them quiet.
Whereas if we would have that equality from the beginning. So one of the things when I interrupted you, I just wanted to say is, you know, I work a lot with [01:00:00] burnout and exhaustion for women. And I love to position that in a socioeconomic context of it kind of makes sense that you're burnt out right now.
This is not a new problem. Tanya and I both seem to be really passionate around. Improvement, not just of self, but of context, of noticing and being aware of, yes, what is ours to maybe shift and change and grow and transform and learn about, but also recognizing that we are in contexts, in situations, in our organization, in our company, in our relationship, in our, you know, general sociocultural paradigm, where It's not really on us to change.
It's the system that needs to be fixed, or it's the organization that is, that should be changing, or it's our partner that should be stepping up. I see so often women making themselves wrong [01:01:00] if something's not working and rushing out to fix or change or self criticize or listen to another podcast or get another book.
Um, and that's going to be the thing that shifts the needle. And that's a beautiful quality, right? To be self aware and to want to learn. And I would also position the other side of sometimes it really is not you, it's them. And I think we're very quick to be looking at ourselves and not so, um, not so confident in looking around and saying, okay, how am I showing up? Yes. Let me be aware of that, but let me also be aware of. systemic injustice here. Let me also be aware of organizational background. Let me also be aware of where my partner's at in terms of what they're stepping up to do. And maybe this is actually their work to do, or maybe this is actually my organization's work to do. And it's not necessarily that I'm the person doing something wrong.
I mean, it's, you know, I have to say, I, I am, people do [01:02:00] comment on how much that you, you know, like I do have a lot going on, but also, you know, it's that, you know, I do, I haven't, I have anxiety. I'm not going to lie there. And I also have ADHD. My son's been diagnosed with ADHD and that's just like, Oh, tick all those boxes for me. So having too much going on is actually a very good way for me, for me, it's a coping mechanism. And I know I'm not saying it's a positive coping mechanism, but it is, you know, if I don't have a lot going on, it's that downward spiral of, of sitting on the sofa, just being like the doom of like, Oh, I've got to do this, that, and the other thing.
Whereas if I can just get on and start something, and then I can, you know, I can switch gears and do positive procrastination and focus on something while I'm avoiding doing something else.
Um, but yeah, burnout is, is. I don't think I know any, and, and this isn't to be, you know, judgmental or mean to, to women who don't have children, [01:03:00] um, but I don't actually think I know any mothers that are not burned out, you know, and I, and I should say, probably say, you know, with children who are living at home, I think if you're, you're a mom that doesn't have their children there, then it's a, it's a different game, but for any of the mothers that I know who have children living with them, we're all tired.
We're all exhausted. Okay. I don't see that same level of exhaustion with fathers, and I don't see that same level of exhaustion with, you know, child free men and women. So, yeah, I mean, for mothers, we're all just exhausted. Which, again, is It's a sign, right? Of like, something's got to change here. There's something that's going wrong within a society.
It can't be nor, quote unquote, normal. It can't be a natural progression that everybody, every working mother is just, you know, sick, um, ill, depressed, anxious. Yeah. You know, physically and [01:04:00] well on antibiotics half the time like that. Yeah. Yeah. We, we now see that as like, well, that's just regular. That's just what we've got to do. But underneath there's something that needs to shift.
I was just going to say, you know, it's sort of like, you know, in Japan they, and as in many other countries as well, you know, they, You know, for mental health care, leave, you know, two or three months, don't come into work, you'll get, you know, you'll get paid, but don't come into work, and then people start to kind of start to feel better, and then they go right back into that environment, and like, and I just keep saying, like, nothing's going to change, it's just going to be a cycle of somebody feels that they're strong enough and able enough to go back into work, they go back into an environment that's, I don't want to say caused, but, you know, had a large impact on mental health. If we're not making changes and we're not making environmental changes, then, then, yeah, nothing, it's just a cycle. You kind of recover a little bit, you know, it's a, it's a bandaid on a broken femur.[01:05:00]
And then let's throw another workshop at it, right? Let's do a lunch and learn. Around stress management. Let's do some work counseling and have some pizza and talk about things. Like, that's not going to fix anything. Not what we need.
No.
So, in closing, what would you say you're most proud of in yourself in holding a career, growing that career, in having a child, in bringing up a boy differently, in being in a partnership, in living in this country with such a different cultural background? What are you most proud of?
Where I am right now, um, I am honestly, I'm most proud of being able to get through my doctorate program with COVID happening. Covid lockdown. Um, I had quit a job, started a new job, had a small child. My husband moved to China, and being able [01:06:00] to complete that degree because as I said, you know, my, my, my dissertation focuses on, you know, career mobility and opportunities for women in higher education.
There's been a lot of. You know, when I talk about it, people are like, oh, well, where's the evidence? Where's the proof? And now I can say, you know what? I am actually an expert in this. I have a doctorate in this. There is a, I do have a dissertation on this. Being able to put my money where my mouth is and You know, for other women who are in higher education who feel the same frustrations that I do in terms of, you know, career barriers and whatnot, I can say, Hey, you know, if you're interested in reading something, you can read this, it's just, it's just the comfort now that women can read it and know it's not all in their head.
You know, it provides, I don't know if it's like mental support, but it's just, you know, it's [01:07:00] like somebody, finally, there's something in words that kind of describes things and puts the solution, um, some solutions forwards. But I think for me. Being able to get that done, you know, my, my sister and I are first generation university graduates.
She's the first person to graduate from in our family. I'm the second. Um, to be able to get to that level, given the state of what was going on in my home life, but also outside, you know, the world was basically on fire. And just having, I guess, spite and grit to get it done. It was a big, it was a big joke with my cohort.
It was like, you know, spite is just going to get us through it because we, you know, we lost so many cohort members. Because of COVID, not because of them dying because of COVID, but because everybody got pushed online and online learning and dealing with everything. So being able to get that done for me and having [01:08:00] my son be around and at an age where he understands and could see me working hard on it. And you know, he, there were nights where I would just sit at the computer and cry, and he would come over and say, you know, like, what's wrong? And I'm just like, mommy's got to get this done. And so, you know, he's been with me through that journey.
And I want that for him to be, you know, one of those core memories. Mummy, Mummy's a doctor. Mummy got through it. And, and, show him that despite everything that's going on, you can still move forward. Hmm. Hmm. So for me, that's where I am.
Oh, I just got chills on my arms as you talked about that. Both in terms of You know, there's a piece here about, like, I feel so strongly about this, that I continue even when it's hard and even when it feels impossible. Yeah. I take small steps and I just keep on moving forward. [01:09:00] And I have someone witnessing that, right? And here is this gift and this resource for all of us, all of these women in the world. So thank you. for carrying on.
Yeah. Well, you know, it's Dory. Just keep swimming. That was, that was my mantra, you know, my, my son and I would sing it, you know, just keep swimming, just keep swimming. Yeah.
Who knew that finding Nemo and finding Dory would be so formative in this particular experience.
Well, thank you so much for the time today.
Oh, I love having these conversations. So, so much. Thank you for being here for listening to the work family me podcast. If you want to connect with me in real life, I would love that. You can find me on LinkedIn and I will put the link for my profile below. So you can just click on that and connect with me.See you out there.[01:10:00]
I hope you enjoyed this discussion with Tanja around feminism and the choices women are making in today’s society around work, career, and family. She is working to give her son an example of how men can be capable in a home, despite the societal norms and there is so much power in that.
Here is a link to Tanja’s dissertation on gender inequity in Japanese higher education https://ir.lib.uwo.ca/oip/317/
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Quotes:
“It’s not that women have a deficit. It’s that we aren’t given the same opportunities that men are.” -Tanja